Podcast: How the Enneagram Can Strengthen Relationships

Our clinical director is featured again on the Empowered and Unapologetic podcast talking about how the Enneagram can be used to strengthen relationships. Laurel and Veronica Cisneros of Outside The Norm Counseling talk about how the enneagram has helped them level up in business, life, love, and friendship. It makes problematic behaviors less personal and gives you a map to be the best version of yourself.

Listen to Part 2 here.

• Transcript Below

  [LRM] If you look at the nine types, each type has a different motivation, and if you can truly understand your own motivation and the motivations of others, that is some powerful information.

  [Music]

  [Veronica] Hey, my name is Veronica Cisneros and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, a mama of three girls, and married for 23 years. I am obsessed with helping you navigate through the seasons of marriage, helping couples like you break free from feeling like roommates.

  I will teach you the secrets to having a healthy marriage by providing tools and tips to help you reconnect in a way that you can’t keep your hands off each other. Where flirting and kissing is the norm in your household. Setting intentional time to date, get to know and support each other's dreams and goals so that you can grow together without keeping score or judging one another.

  Where you feel seen and heard even when you disagree, where arguments end with mutual respect and understanding. Where you work together to build and strengthen your family, so no one feels like they're carrying the weight of the family on their own. These are the necessary skills your children need for you to model so that they develop healthy relationships and thrive in life.

  This is the Empowered and Unapologetic Podcast.

  [Music]

  [Veronica] Hey ladies, welcome to the Empowered and Unapologetic Podcast. I'm your host, Veronica Cisneros.

  Today's guest is definitely a sister from another mister. She is brilliant. She a thousand percent had me at hello. I love so much about her and what I love even more is that I get to share her with you.

  Her name is Laurel Roberts-Meese. I'm not used to saying like your whole full, like formal name.

  Who is a licensed marriage and family therapist clinical director with a decade of experience including significant trauma work. She founded the Laurel Therapy Collective: a group of therapists prides itself on serving a diverse community including many couples. She's been using the enneagram as a tool for personal professional growth for 20 years. She often uses it as a blueprint with clients, colleagues, of course me, to help them reach their full holistic potential free from pathology. So ladies, help me welcome Laurel. Hey Laurel.

  [LRM] Hi. Thanks for having me.

  [Veronica] Absolutely. So we're just going to get into this.

  [LRM] Yeah.

  [Veronica] You've been doing the Enneagram. What the hell for those who are like, Veronica, are you cursing at me in a different language? Like, what is Enneagram? What is this?

  [LRM] Enneagram is a system for understanding how different people in the world are operating, right? So you know how like on computers we have Mac and PC and I guess there's Linux too, but who uses that, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] So this is basically like a core operating system that different humans have. So some people really love astrology. They think that that, you know, really kind of sums up how people are different. I have no beef with astrology. It just doesn't feel as complete as the Enneagram to me. And again, no hate on astrology. But it is, it's a path for understanding yourself, for improving yourself and for like really deeply understanding other people in your life who have different motivations and drives than you do. And when you understand what's driving other people, you can have some powerful relationships.

  [Veronica] Yes. Yes. So I mentioned to you earlier, I want you to like—we'll use myself as an example, cause why not? So totally took the test. And when you and I talked about this, I'm like, Laurel, I'm a three wing two. Okay. And you're like, Veronica? No, you're not. Take me through it. Take me through it.

  [LRM] Well, that's a party trick. And it's not supposed to be used as a party trick. But yes, there are definitely things that we can rule out with you. So for those of you who haven't heard of the Enneagram, there are nine types and they use numbers for each type. And it doesn't really matter that they're numbers like they could be flowers or birds or like anything. We just happen to use numbers to describe this core experience people are having. And where people run into difficulty taking those tests—is that tests are pretty good at measuring behavior. They're not good at measuring motivation.

  [Veronica] Gotcha.

  [LRM] They don't measure the why someone is doing something. So, you know, you might on the outside look very similar to a three wing two, which is actually my type, right? And that we both are pretty outgoing. And we can be very direct. We have a lot of ambition. And yet, you and I have a very different core motivation in life, right?

  [Veronica] Yes. Yes.

  [LRM] So if you look at the nine types, each type has a different motivation. And if you can truly understand your own motivation in the motivations of others, that is some powerful information. So, let's start with type eight, right? Type eight, these are very bold personalities. And their big motivation is autonomy and being in control of themselves and their destiny. And they are a large presence in a room, right? I have a particular fondness for female eights because it's kind of like they didn't succumb to all the bullshit programming of being a woman where you're supposed to just be polite and smile and go with the flow and take care of others. And that's not that's not it, right?

  So the core motivation of eight is autonomy and power, right? Now, each type can be healthy or unhealthy. And most people are pretty in the middle, right? It's a scale. So a type eight of probably the most famous example of a type eight is our former president who would be a very unhealthy person, right? And then there can be, you know, these beautiful magnanimous giving, very loving eights who are very powerful and use their power to protect others, right? So that's eight.

  [Veronica] Okay.

  [LRM] And eight is a type we have considered for you, but again, not going to do a party track. I'm not going to tell you your core motivation because your core, you're the only one that knows your core motivation.

  [Veronica] Yes, absolutely. So when you came up with, let's say eight for me, obviously we've known each other for a good amount of time, you know? And we've spent time. We've gone on vacations. We just came back from our second vacation with each other.

  [LRM] We just shared a, we just shared an Uber at six a.m. on Monday.

  [Veronica] So much fun. So much fun. So when you're looking at these, you know, at these types, what ultimately, like, what is, what are you literally, what are you really focusing on? And why are you focusing on, like, certain behaviors, certain, certain motivational factors?

  [LRM] Yeah. Well, I use it, well, for myself, so I'm a three with a two wing. And so the three is the achiever. And I'm a very ambitious person. And I also care a lot about being seen as successful and being, you know, liked and admired and kind of being seen as having all my shit together, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] And then the two is the nurture or like really taking care of others and, you know, making sure everyone around me has what they need, but there's a little bit of ego to it. Yeah. That's a thousand percent. And knowing those things about myself, when I see myself veering towards unhealthy, when I am, you know, leaning towards like vanity or leaning towards, you know, doing things just for how it's perceived or doing things just to appear successful, there's not a lot of substance or authenticity to that.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] So I can check myself and be like, hey, you know, actually, what would actually make you feel better and be a health, the healthiest version of yourself would be to, you know, think about how this is going to impact others and making sure it's authentic to me, not just an image, right? So when you know other people's types, you can also interface with them in a much more powerful way. So, I love this example of the day I met my fiancee, I immediately look, I immediately knew I was looking at a five. I was like, that is the fiveiest five I've ever seen. Fives are pretty withdrawn. They're very quiet and they are noticing everything in the room. They have the most information in the room.

  [Veronica] Mmmm.

  [LRM] Fives care a whole lot about being knowledgeable, being seen as competent and they kind of hoard information. Like you, you want a five on your team because they are an excellent researcher and they, they can be truly neutral.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Like emotionally, they can be like, no, actually, I feel truly neutral about this. And that can be a real foil to someone who is much more like ambitious and go, go, go. And let's get it done.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] We want someone that's like, hold on, let's research this, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] So immediately recognizing my fiance as a five, I was able to be like, okay, don't approach with too much intensity.

  [Veronica] Yes.

  [LRM] Like let's give space. Let's make sure that we notice the intellect and how they are noticing everything else in the room, right? And you can build a really powerful relationship and a very deep relationship when you have that kind of understanding of someone else. It's also great as a parent or a manager.

  [Veronica] Yeah. And I definitely want to tap, tap into that as well.

  [LRM] Mmhm.

  [Veronica] It sounds like with developing this understanding, what's, I'll say number because that's where we're at. Well, you know, what number they are.

  [LRM] Mmhm.

  [Veronica] It also helps you with not personalizing.

  [LRM] Bingo, right? Yes. Absolutely. You're like, oh, they did this because they are primarily motivated by maintaining peace. That would be a type nine. Their primary motivation is maintaining peace. And if you understand that that is someone's motivation, yeah, they didn't respond to your email because the email might have been a little inflammatory or the email was making a request to threaten their peace. It's not about you. It's about the fact that they value peace over everything else, right?

  So when you don't take it personally, then you can approach them and be like, “hey, you know, I realize my email might have come on a little strong. What I actually want is this,” right? Okay. So you can make a good repair where they feel seen and understood. And then you have a better relationship.

  [Veronica] I love that. So the enneagram, how, how do we develop these skills? Because like right now, when you described three, wing two, I'm still going to hold on to that. I'm like, oh my god, that's totally me. She's describing me when you described eight. It's like, oh, yeah, that can totally be me too. How do we know?

  [LRM] Mhmm, yeah. Well, it's really common to have a couple that could be a good fit. Again, I'm not a huge fan of tests. They measure behavior. They don't measure, they don't measure motivation. So read books, read blogs, listen to podcasts. There's some really good, enneagram podcasts out there that talk about each type. And so long as you are focusing on what motivates you, I think when, when you hear a description of your true type for the first time, there's this like, oh gosh, they, they see me a little too well.

  [Veronica] Yeah. Yeah.

  [LRM] You know, it's, it's, it can be uncomfortable. It's like, wow, who is like looking right in my brain. Yeah. So that discomfort is a sign that could be your type.

  [Veronica] Gotcha.

  [LRM] There'll be some right away that you're like, oh, yeah, that's not me. We all have a little bit of most of the types, but you're going to have a dominant one. And then you're going to have a wing that is right next to your number. So you can't be a seven wing five. It has to be a seven wing six or a seven wing eight, right?

  [Veronica] Gotcha.

  [LRM] And your type is your type for your whole life. A lot of people think it can change. You might look very different. It kind of might behaviorally manifest very differently, but your primary motivation in life is going to stay the same.

  [Veronica] Yeah. Which, okay, so we now have a better understanding of like how to find out what our, what our number is. And then what also determines it—when we're working with couples or when we're in these relationships, not only in our relationship with our partners, but also, well, let's start there. Let's start there. Oftentimes, I get a lot of women say, my husband is emotionally unavailable. He's a narcissist, must be a narcissist. You know, or he's completely avoidant or, you know, he's just, he's just shut off. How do we figure out what our partner is?

  [LRM] Well, hopefully we know our partner well enough to know what their primary motivation is, but that's not always the case. Like some people are very complicated, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] So, so I actually love it when couples sit down within any grand book or website or something. They're like, hey, let's figure this out. It can be a great way to build love maps, right? Those Gottman folks building love maps, which is like a deep understanding of your partners in a world, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] A couple of things that could be showing up in that particular situation, unrelated to any grand, like you could have an introvert husband, or there's a whole lot of socialization of men to not show feelings, to not communicate about feelings and that programming culturally, societally at least is very strong. And it hurts everyone. It hurts them. It hurts you. It's, it's a real beast to unpack.

  But if you're looking at the enneagram and there, there may be not someone who's like emotionally stuffing, you might be looking at one of the types that is more withdrawn. So, there are three withdrawn types, three kind of middle of the road types, and three assertive types. Now you and I are both an assertive type.

  [Veronica] No way. No way.

  [LRM] The assertive types are three, seven, and eight. And the withdrawn types are four, five, and nine. And the middle of the road types are one, two, and six, which is kind of like selectively, they can be quite assertive and the rest of the time, they can be more withdrawn.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] We haven't gone through a whole description of all the nine types. That take the whole lot of time. There are a lot of places you can get that information. And I also want to assume that some of your listeners already are familiar with the system. And we're talking more about like, okay, once you know your type, then what do you do?

  [Veronica] Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So what is a book you mentioned? You know, a couple getting together and diving into a book. What book would you recommend that we look into?

  [LRM] Yeah. Well, the older one, the wisdom of the enneagram I like, that's by Riso and Hudson. And then I just finished reading Journey to Wholeness by Susanne Stubil, which I really liked. And that is really a roadmap for self-improvement, which is like, okay, you know your number, how can you be the best version of your number, both for yourself and in your relationships, personal and professional? And that's what I love so much about the enneagram.

  I think that, you know, I used the kind of similarities with astrology for me, what I, and I could be very wrong on this, but what I haven't heard people do is like using astrology as a roadmap for like how to be the best version of you. It's kind of like, this is who you are, right? And that's very important. We, we do come into the world with a certain amount of like nature, right? Like you were always going to be an extrovert Veronica.

  [Veronica] No way. So it's never going to go away.

  [LRM] It doesn't matter like what happened to you in your life. You were always going to be an extrovert, right? And many things that happened to you since that moment you were born, have shaped who you are.

  [Veronica] Thousand, for all.

  [LRM] That's what I love about the enneagram. It's very trauma-informed. It's like how have the experiences you had in your life shaped you and your motivations?

  [Veronica] Yes. So are there any not-so-great? I don't want to say bad, but not-so-great combinations when it comes to you and your partner.

  [LRM] You mean three, five specifically?

  [Veronica] Well, I don't know…

  [LRM] Oh, any types. Any types-

  [Veronica] Like are there any types where you're like, you're sitting with this book, you're like, all right babe, I'm an eight. You're a, I don't know, whatever number. Is it like, “okay, well, it was a good run. It was a good run.”

  [LRM] No, no, absolutely not. There, I want to say there are no bad types. There's just healthy and unhealthy version of these types and there are no bad pairings.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] You truly can have a successful fulfilling marriage with any type.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Now some combinations are going to have more challenges that they have to address. So for example, I'm going to use two and five as an example. Two is the nurturer.

  [Veronica] I'm all used to. Use willy and I. Use willy and I, I don't know.

  [LRM] I mean, we don't know what Willy is.

  [Veronica] Yes. You don't.

  [LRM] I haven't met Willy, besides a brief facetime. So, so I can't be doing that to Willy. I mean, he's not here to defend himself and tell us, “no, that's not my motivation.”

  [Veronica] He’s like “That's not me.” All right. Let's use another one.

  [LRM] Yeah. Well, yeah, two and five. So two is like the nurturer. They're very much that like just that archetype of like the loving partner mom, like very feminine and they're absolutely male twos. There absolutely are—they’re lovely we need more of them in the world, but it's a very female energy type and it's a whole lot of taking care of others before yourself. And maybe some resentment that comes up when you take care of everyone else before yourself, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] So if you pair that with a five, five's are very brainy. They don't love talking about feelings. Some do, but most don't and very much hoard information and resources to protect themselves because they have a very limited amount of energy. So an unhealthy five might be emotionally stingy, right?

  So if you get someone who's very expressive, very giving and their partner is really struggling to be emotionally generous, you're going to have that pursuer-distancer dynamic and there's going to be resentment that builds up, right?

  And then when you discover like, “oh, we're enneagram, two, five couple, here's how we fix that.” The two needs to stop doing things without being asked and the five needs to do more things.

  [Veronica]Yeah.

  [LRM] It needs to move toward the partner, right? So that's an example of like you said, it depersonalizes it.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] The five being emotionally withdrawn is not about the two, but the two believes they are the reason, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] So when you recognize like, oh, this is just how my partner is wired, you can have more empathy and compassion and work towards solution. It's not just like, well, that's who they are.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Because we should all be striving to be the best version of ourselves.

  [Veronica] Absolutely. One thing that has helped me, I cannot say I am in any way, she perform an expert when it comes to enneagram, because right now Laurel is shutting out all these numbers and I'm like, all right, cool.

  But I know, I know from it, just kind of listening to you say these things, that's really what has helped Willy and I have the relationship we currently have is understanding like, okay, wait a minute. This isn't anything personal, you know,

  [LRM] Yeah.

  [Veronica] Willy, Willy's primary motivation is this. And that has helped me so much with like, and I've had a conversation with you guys. We all went to dinner and I was talking about how I would cut a bitch if I needed to. And for me, you know, I was telling you guys that security is something so big for me, so, so big for me. And I struggle and still, you know, I will admit, I still struggle with this.

  It's also like, when I'm thinking rational, and I'm not going into psycho-crazy mode, like when I am able to think rationally, I'm able to look at Willy and go, “okay, wait a minute. What is this underlying motivation” and the underlying motivation almost always goes to protecting his family. However, it's not in the way that, right? It's not in the way that I'm wanting him to protect us, right? Cue in my dad. It is. It's like, and for a long time, for a very long time, I would personalize this. “He doesn't love me enough.” You know, “we're not worthy. He doesn't think we're worthy.” Otherwise, you know, he would cut a bitch.

  And yeah, there was, there was a lot of feelings and a lot of resentment I had towards Willy because it's like, okay, well, “when are you going to love me the way I need you to love me?” You know, and what I realized was he was loving. That love didn't stop. It was there. It's just my own perception and my own past blinding me from being able to go out and see Willy for who he is and who is not.

  [LRM] Yeah. It's competing needs, right?

  [Veronica] So, I love that you just said that. Yes, write that down, ladies. If you're not, you know, if you have a pen and paper right this down. She's going to give you a lot of good shit. Yeah. So competing needs. Tell me more. Tell me more about that.

  [LRM] Yeah. Well, so we don't know what type Willy is. But let's say he could be a nine or six. Maybe, right? Nine, the core motivation is peace. Six, their core motivation is like security and kind of maintaining status, like maintaining what we have, right?

  [Veronica] Oh my gosh. Okay I see why you, now I see why you have both of them. Yeah, I don't even know. Okay. We don't know. Yeah.

  [LRM] We’re gonna let Willy tell us offline later on.

  [Veronica] Sure.

  [LRM] But if you know, like your need for protection, autonomy, power control is directly in contrast with his need for peace. No one's wrong in that situation, but you don't have a situation where you've got to figure out what to do so that you both get enough of what you need.

  [Veronica] Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? How do you do that? Well, I know what it took for Willy and I to do it. And it took a whole hell of a lot of patience. I mean, me not wanting to shake the shit out of him. You know, how does somebody that doesn't have a therapist background? Right? How does somebody do this? Like, can you give us, not a ban-aid obviously, but can you give us maybe a step? Can you give us a tip?

  [LRM] I mean, it's so hard without like a specific scenario, but let's say, yeah. So, I love kind of identifying the issue. Like, okay, you want peace. I want fun.

  [Veronica] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

  [LRM] Right? And how can we both get what we need? Which is like, okay, maybe we're going to go out and go to a party and have this is a very concrete example and you know, have a wild Saturday night and then Sunday, we're just going to chill. We're not going to even answer the phone or the door. Like, it's going to be quiet. So it's, I hate the word compromise because it implies giving something away. Whereas like, if both of you get what you need, you're both doing better.

  [Veronica] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Like, there's the competing needs and then compromise without self-sacrifice. Yeah.

  [LRM] Right. Right. Some types might be more prone to self-sacrifice. I'm looking at nines and twos because nines want peace and twos want to be needed. Gotcha. So they might put other people's needs. It might be very difficult for them to voice what they want and need. And that is the journey of growth for nines and twos.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] How do I show up and take up more space as a person with what I want and need? And for others, it's like, how do I make a little more space for my partner or my employees or my child or whatever it is?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [Ad for Veronica’s Workshop]

  [Veronica] Right now as you're sharing all of this, I have to admit, I'm still getting confused by the numbers…

  [LRM] Yes.

  [Veronica] And if I'm getting confused by the numbers, I know other people are getting confused by the numbers. And so I'm like,

  [LRM] You want me to go through real quick?

  [Veronica] I do want you to go through real quick and I'm wondering if we make this part one where it's an explanation of the enneagram and part two we bring… ladies! We bring Willy's ass on here because here's why. I know what you do. Don't get me wrong. I can't like I wouldn't be able to go ahead and say everything you do, but I'm familiar with what you do because I've watched it. I've watched it when we're in our mastermind and we're in our meetings and you know Courtney, shout out to Courtney and Amy, but like Courtney and Amy are like, “yeah, that that that's me, that's me.”

  And the way we work together and the way we're able to go ahead and give constructive feedback and you know, all this information, it's like this, this beautiful, it's this beautiful mastermind. But I want—

  [LRM] And we’re very balanced in the group. Yes, we have, we have a two, three, six and we think maybe you're an eight. You got to have a seven energy too, but one of those, yeah,

  [Veronica] Ooh. Listen, I'm unique. Don’t put a number on me. I'm just kidding, just kidding. Um, but I want, I want, if you're open to it, I want, I want the women to go out and see this like, like, like, provide an example. Okay, so yes, please, let's go for it.

  [LRM] Let's go ahead and describe all the numbers.

  [Veronica] Let’s do it.

  [LRM] Okay, start at the top of with type nine because nine's, they, they don't like to go first, they don't like to take up a ton of space, they are wonderful. Two of my employees are nines and they, I, I just love them so much. Everyone loves nines because they're so easy to get along with. Their primary motivation is peace, maintaining peace and harmony, making sure people get what they need, but there's not a lot of ego to it. It's just like, “yeah, I want everyone to be at peace,” right?

  Um, and you mentioned this, you were kind of snapping at, like, this is very trauma-informed, like, we all become this way because of the environment we grew up in. So, a nine might have learned to survive as a kid by like, “yeah, I don't need to take up much space. Everyone else in the family is kind of got a lot going on. I'll just kind of float.”

  They're, they're in addition to being very motivated by peace, they're very motivated by connection to others. Like, they desperately want to feel connected. Yeah. I mean, who doesn't want to feel connected, but particularly nines. Yeah. When they're not healthy, they can be very detached and kind of floating and really not have a sense of self. And when they're very healthy, they're able to take up space and be assertive and talk about what they need and maintain peace, right? There's that balance. Okay, that's nine.

  Type one, um, ones are the change makers in the world in that they have very clear, sometimes black and white vision of how things should be. They are idealists in the best sense of the word. Like, they can see like, wow, the world would be a better place if we had universal housing or healthcare or something. And, and they will work their ass off to make it happen.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] They are very much about making positive change in the world. Their primary motivation is to do and be good. They're, they're very afraid that there's something deeply bad about them. So they spend a lot of their time and energy trying to compensate by doing and being good.

  [Veronica] Gotcha.

  [LRM] They can sometimes struggle with being angry when change doesn't happen at the pace that they want. And when they are very healthy, you look at incredible world leaders. Who just have devoted their life and all their passion to making positive change. When they're very unhealthy, they are, you know, out of control zealots that are just kind of wreaking havoc.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Right? But that theme of feeling or worrying, they are deeply bad is really important to differentiate from other types.

  [Veronica] Yeah. Okay. Okay.

  [LRM] Then you've got twos. I've already talked a little bit about twos. Two is primary motivation is love. They just want to be loved. And they became a two somewhere along the way, getting messaging that their that love from their caregivers was conditional. That they needed to do things or, you know, be of service or take care of or, you know, otherwise be, be of service.

  There's also a lot of conditioning of women to be nurturing and to be good and loving. And when twos are very healthy, they are nurturers and, you know, wonderful caretakers and they take care of themselves and they know they are lovable even when they're not taking care of others.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Now I have complicated feelings about the concept of unconditional love because I think as adults, like, then there should probably be some conditions on love. Like you should probably not be a complete asshole. Right.

  [Veronica] Probably not. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

  [LRM] And there should be allowed to be conditions on love, but not for children. And that is kind of the core wound of the two is like feeling that love was conditional as a child. Right. Okay. So their primary motivation is love. They can also have a lot of ego involved. Like, “oh, you need me. You need me to take care of you.”

  [Veronica] Uh-huh.

  [LRM] So when they're unhealthy, they can be really resentful. Yeah. And when they're very healthy, they take care of themselves and others.

  [Veronica] Got you.

  [LRM] And know that they are lovable just for who they are.

  [Veronica] Got you. This one's a flirt. I like it.

  [LRM] Can be. Yeah. Um, then we've got type three. That's me. The primary motivation is success and being liked. Um, there's a lot of ambition here. And it, there's some similarity to two in that they feel like they have to do and achieve to be liked.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] And that, uh, that they have to be, they have to be successful to kind of take up space in the world, right? Now this can look a lot of different ways. It can look like needing to have a million followers on Instagram or it can look like making a ton of money or it can look like having a fancy title, right? There can be a certain amount of vanity in this type or it can just be like, “I'm an ambitious person and I just want to be really successful,” right? And “I just can't stop the hustle,” right? You can be an introvert and be a three. I am. I mean, you know that like at a certain point when we travel, I'm just like, I just go in my room and like, I just, I just got to be alone.

  [Veronica] I need to reset. I need to reset.

  [LRM] Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the primary motivation is, um, success, but being seen as successful, right?

  [Veronica] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  [LRM] Okay. So then you got fours and fours are the most complex type on the enneagram. They are very sensitive. They have a deep experience and appreciation for emotion and complicated emotion. And there's a certain amount of, um, yearning for the ease that other people have walking through the world. Other people just seem to kind of have an easier time at life.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Right? There's a lot of, um, feeling very intensely and, um, feeling a little left out, feeling different, but juxtaposed with this like,” I don't want to be the same as everyone else.” So like, “I want to fit in. I want to be accepted, but I don't want to be the same.” That's complicated, right? Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. So the primary motivation for the four is authenticity, being who you really are.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] And sometimes it's hard to be who you really are and fit in to a big community or to feel like there's space for you or to feel understood.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] So that's a very complex experience. Fours are very interesting. They're the only type that will somewhat commonly pair with another one of their same type. Most of the time we don't see two of the same type in a relationship, but fours tend to really like each other because they feel understood.

  [Veronica] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

  [LRM] You got fives. I already talked a little bit about five. My fiancee is a five. They are all about competence, information, and conservation of energy. Fives have very little energy out in the world and their primary motivation is, um, hoarding that energy and knowledge, right? Like there is never enough energy and knowledge to feel quite secure. Sometimes fives will actually hoard literal objects, but it's more of an abstract hoarding.

  So like “I need to protect my energy and my time and the information that I have.” And they are very curious. These are people that love documentaries or can just like really niche down on a subject to to a degree that most of us just don't have the capacity to niche down that hard, right?

  And they can be visionaries. They can absolutely like have ideas or concepts that go far beyond what most people can comprehend. I think most people would consider Bill Gates and Steve Jobs to be fives because they just have this level of information, but also vision. So it's very minute detail, but then it goes big, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Sixes, they are primarily motivated by security. Now, sixes are interesting. They're kind of two types. You can have the phobic six, which is very anxious and like they are the people you want in charge of disaster preparedness. Like they've got the earthquake bag. They've got the- the- the emergency plan. Like here's where we're going to meet in the event of a disaster, right? And they're kind of the oh my gosh, what if? And they're they're planned. They're great contingency planners.

  And then they're the counterphobic sixes who are like “the world of dangerous place. So why not bungee jump? Why not jump out of planes? Why not confront that person in position of power?”

  [Veronica] They’re like “fuck it!”

  [LRM] Yeah, but the undercurrent for both is anxiety. So people that are highly anxious that they often have a very complicated relationship with authority because they want the protection and the leadership of authority, but they don't trust it. They don't know that authority has what's in their best interest, right? So there's that real like, okay, “like I'm glad you're there, but I've got my eye on you.” You know, so their primary primary motivation is security.

  You got sevens and their primary motivation is to be content and free from pain. And that it these are these are your party animals. These are people—they are so fun. They want to taste everything at the buffet of life. They want to go to this club, and that restaurant, and that resort, and they want to try this and that they like to have all different kinds of relationships and jobs. These are kind of jack of all trades. They are high energy, high extrovert, highly social most of the time.

  [Veronica] Yeah, I'm getting FOMO.

  [LRM] Oh, yeah, tons of FOMO for sevens. And yet, that doesn't work forever. You cannot outrun suffering and pain forever.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] And sevens, they cope by kind of treading water. You can't do that your whole life. So when bad things happen, when tragedy strikes, when we go through hard times, sevens have no coping skills with which to handle it. And they kind of crumble, right? There's some thought that Robin Williams might have been a seven, right? That high energy, high, you know, hilarious. And when tragedy comes, just like, how do we handle it? Right?

  [Veronica] Yeah. Yeah.

  [LRM] And these people are really fun at parties and it can be exhausting to keep up with them because they're so high energy and there isn't the pause for reflection.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Right? Yeah. We talked about eights a little. These are people who they do not want to be controlled. They do not want anyone to have power over them. They want to be in full control of their life and their money and their time. And they don't want to be perceived as weak. So the primary motivation here is autonomy, power. And when someone's very healthy, they are an excellent protector of others. When they're healthy, they can be great bosses. They can be great leaders. And when they're unhealthy, they are, you know, these domineering power brokers, they're manipulative. They blackmail people. Like, so you can see like, there's no good or bad types. It's just how healthy are you?

  [Veronica] Gotcha.

  [LRM] So those are the nine types.

  [Veronica] I love that. I love that. Laurel, like right now as you were going through each one of them, and I'm sure the audience had the same experience. Like I started thinking about people in my life that are like, oh my gosh, like Courtney is totally a six. So I'm like, there's Courtney.

  [LRM] Yeah. Right?

  [Veronica] Like, um, but it's like, oh my gosh, like you just provided all of us with this, like, I don't know if I call it a roadmap, but like, yeah,

  [LRM] Different operating systems. And if you know someone else has a different operating system, you can approach them with empathy and you can have a more successful relationship. You can communicate so much better.

  So, um, when I know I am talking to a four.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] I'm probably going to lead with feelings. I'm going to be really sensitive. I'm going to be really relational. I'm going to allow time and space for them to process and have their reaction.

  If I'm talking to an eight, I'm going to get right to the point. I'm going to explain what needs to happen. I'm going to explain the, yeah, do not waste time. Right?

  [Veronica] Mm-hmm.

  [LRM] If I am talking to a one, I'm going to be really careful that I'm not sounding critical because they're so deeply afraid that they're bad. And if I come across this critical, they're just going to crumble and not hear what I have to say. Right?

  So this is not meant to manipulate. It's meant to just help you be more effective in having relationships with people, including challenging relationships.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] Right? If you understand, like, okay, this person, let's say it's an ex-husband, like you understand his primary motivation is this, you have a tough relationship and you need to communicate something around the kids' school stuff, right?

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] You can approach him so that you can both, like, not have to get into a bunch of conflict and actually both get what you need for the good of the kids, right? Yeah. You know where your soft spot is and his and you can avoid it.

  [Veronica] Yeah. It's kind of like you were just, you are now provided with insight on how to have a healthy conversation and how to have a healthy relationship. Love it. For those who--

  [LRM] And you know, help people be the best version of them, like, with parenting or with an employee you're trying to develop. Like, you're like, I know you have so much potential. Here's how I'm going to help you get there.

  [Veronica] Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So for the women that are just kind of listening and they're like, “holy shit, I need this in my life.” So, totally interested. How can they continue exploring the enneagram further after this episode? Yeah. What can we do?

  [LRM] Well, yeah, we've got a bunch of content on my website, laureltherapy.net about the enneagram. Myself and one of my other clinicians, we actually offer therapy that is informed by the enneagram. So like, using therapy as a tool to be the best seven you can be or to be the best one you can be, right?

  And, but you don't have to, you know, be signing up for therapy. We have tons of blog content and we have descriptions of the types that go into more detail on one of the pages. We actually have, like the enneagram as flowers, like what we would pick for them, you know, because the numbers are arbitrary.

  [Veronica] Yeah.

  [LRM] And then, you know, there's a lot of really great content out there on Instagram, on podcasts. There's a lot of good books. Just be careful of any resource that is kind of using it as a party trick or telling people what they are and or not using it in a way that centers around motivation, right? Like, it's cute to like, designate which Halloween candies belong to each type, but like Halloween candy doesn't have motivation.

  [Veronica] No, not at all. Yeah.

  [LRM] Yeah.

  [Veronica] Well, I'm excited to go ahead and record a part two.

  [LRM] Yeah, let’s do it.

  [Veronica] Really, really excited. Just because like I said, I want, I want the audience to actually see this in action. Thank you so much for jumping on. How can we, so we already got your, yeah, we already have your website. How can we find you on social media?

  [LRM] Yeah. So we're at Laurel Therapy Collective on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn. And I think one other, oh, and on YouTube. Okay. And we've got a lot of great content on there.

  [Veronica] Awesome. I am excited. So definitely we'll have all of this information on our show notes. Laurel, we're definitely recording part two. We're going to talk offline on how I, what questions I need to ask Willy, or how we can prepare for this meeting because, yeah, yeah, there's where that is.

  [LRM] Let's do it all in the meeting. Let's figure out both of you.

  [Veronica] I'm excited. Let's do it on the, yeah, yeah, we're totally doing it. All right. So this is going to be part one and we're doing part two. Laurel, thank you again.

  [LRM] You're welcome.

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