Podcast: How the Enneagram Can Deepen Your Marriage
“If you can understand your partner’s core programming, there’s no limit to how close and in love you can be.”
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Transcript Below
[Veronica] Hey, my name is Veronica Cisneros and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, a mama of three girls, and married for 23 years. I am obsessed with helping you navigate through the seasons of marriage, helping couples like you break free from feeling like roommates.
I will teach you the secrets to having a healthy marriage by providing tools and tips to help you reconnect in a way that you can't keep your hands off each other. Where flirting and kissing is the norm in your household. Setting intentional time to date, get to know and support each other's dreams and goals so that you can grow together without keeping score or judging one another.
Where you feel seen and heard even when you disagree. We're arguments in with mutual respect and understanding. Where you work together to build and strengthen your family, so no one feels like they're carrying the weight of the family on their own. These are the necessary skills your children need for you to model so that they develop healthy relationships and thrive in life.
This is the Empowered and Unapologetic Podcast.
Hey ladies and welcome to the Empowered and Unapologetic Podcast. I am your host, Veronica Cisneros.
We are on part two, Laurel. Say what's up?
[LRM] Hello, I'm back.
[Veronica] You are back. You are back for round two.
So the person that I have right next to me is my husband and he's giving me the crazy eyes right now because he has no idea what we're about to do. Like at all. So you want to tell him or should I?
[LRM] Yeah. So Veronica and I already did a recording that was about the Enneagram. Have you ever heard of the Enneagram?
[Willy] I heard the name.
[LRM] Okay. So you know how some people are like really into astrology and like use it as a way to understand other people and themselves.
[Willy] Sure.
[LRM] This is not astrology. This is based on like what happens after you're born and how your experiences shape what you want and what you're afraid of in the world.
[Willy] Okay.
[LRM] So it like shapes your core motivations in life. Right. There are nine different types. We went through all the nine different types in the previous episode.
So listeners, if you're like, wait, what?
[Willy] Yeah.
[LRM] Just go back to the first episode that I did. And it really is such a powerful tool in relationships because conflict comes up when our motivations are conflicting or we like don't understand why someone else is doing something. Right?
It's all about the why. It's not exactly what they're doing, but the why.
[Willy] I know about love languages and I thought of hers, but she does not do mine. She ignores it.
[Veronica] This isn't a free counseling session, honey.
[All laugh]
[LRM] Well, okay. So this is this is a great way to talk about like why does Veronica do that?
And then also Veronica. Why why does Willy do that? Right? And coming to us a place of like understanding the core motivations, both of you have in life. Now, I already went through the system in the previous episode that they are there are nine core motivations and fears here.
And we give them numbers, but they could have been anything they could have been rocks. They could have been, you know, birds, whatever. They just happen to be numbers. And we have a pretty good sense of where Veronica is in that like seven eight territory, both like very extroverted, very assertive, very, like moving towards people and just like tons of energy. Right?
[Veronica] Yes.
[LRM] And I'm also one of the more extroverted types, but it shows a very differently than Veronica. Right. And I'm getting a sense from you that especially compared to your lovely wife, you're a little more withdrawn. Right?
[Willy] Yeah. Cautious.
[LRM] Okay. Tell me more about that. Tell me more about being cautious.
[Willy] Well, here we go. I, I don't know, I think it's just through Mount, like you said, experiences in my past career. I was taught to evaluate people and to, and I went into far off lands where even, even now because of those experiences, some of them be more traumatic than others, I am super cautious of people and evaluate them and like look to see like where, where they motivated by like, where, where they have, what's their intent?
And when I travel, when I'm out in public places, I look and constantly evaluating people. And so establishing a sense of trust initially and opening up to anybody is not going to happen for me.
[LRM] Okay, okay.
[Willy] Even through counseling that has always been like a, a big thing and, and just opening up to any therapist has always been like this, especially with the things that this one has taught me. I, I like, as they're evaluating me, I'm evaluating them.
[LRM] Absolutely.
[Willy] Because I want to make sure that they're the right fit for me. And so the same thing with meeting people, I evaluate people and it's just hard to open up until I see that like, their values are aligned with mine. Their intent is, is good. From what I see, they're a good person. And so that's where it could happen fast, but more often than not, it's slow.
[LRM] Yeah, over time, and you need to see a demonstrated pattern, not just verbal commitment, but like actual pattern of loyalty and trustworthiness.
[Willy]Yes.
[LRM] You just gave me such into insight to a potential enneagram type that you could be, right? But I don't want to just tell you who you are.
That's really not how the enneagram is supposed to be used. It's not supposed to be a party trick to be like, well, you did that because you're a two. That's not it, right?
It's looking at like both the strengths and the challenges that come with any given type, right? So I'm going to use myself as an example. I'm a type three. That's the, the kind of colloquial term for it is “the achiever.” I care a whole lot about success and looking successful. And, but also like wanting some substance to back that up. Like it's not just that I want to like appear to everything is like no, I actually want to have everything good, right? And, and to, to be worthy of that admiration from others. And, and also from myself.
And sometimes people with the three, so the strength is they're very hard working. And they are really adaptable. They can kind of be whatever the situation requires of them to be successful.
And some of the drawbacks is sometimes three struggle to be authentic. They struggle to form really deep interpersonal relationship based on meaning rather than on appearance. And so there can be a little bit of shallowness and vanity. And then also a lack of sense of self apart from achievement.
So that's three.
But there's nothing inherently good or bad about any type. It's just how healthy are you in the way you express your type and are you doing the growth work that your type requires? So there are people who are very unhealthy versions of every type and people who are incredibly healthy versions of every type.
Now, what you just told me about yourself. It sounds like loyalty and security are major motivators for you.
[Willy]Yeah.
[LRM] Can you tell me more about that?
[Willy]Well, I guess I would say loyalty for one, my experience is in the Marine Corps. Loyalty goes a long way. And then, and then I would say even before that…
The loyalty, I would say that I come from divorced parents. And I would say that's like really going back as far as you could possibly go. So, not wanting my kids, I guess, to have that is being loyal to my family, being loyal to. And then, you know, I think that's the reason why I'm doing this to me. I don't, because of those bad experiences I want to reverse that experience for my family.
And so, there's times where my wife will say, “why don't you let anybody in?” Like you, you want to like, if you could, you would put us in a bubble. And, or put me in your pocket and, you know, like a kangaroo and put me in your pouch and I go, I would. And I would be happy doing that.
I don't want, because I don't want, I don't like my fun is my family. My best friend is sitting next to me. And so, that's my loyalty. The security is also of them. And nobody else. Like nobody else is, is as important than that.
[LRM] Okay. So, usually I would ask like a whole bunch more questions, but use your own in right, like very like textbook. What I'm hearing and I, I love being wrong. I love like being surprised, but what I'm hearing is very much the type six.
Type six: They are literally called the loyalist. And they are all about security, loyalty. They are excellent contingency planners. So, like, well, if this goes wrong, we have plan B and C.
And there's a really interesting relationship with authority. Now, this also ties into your military background.
In the military, there's very clear hierarchy in like who you report to and chain of command. And I'm interested to hear just not separate from military. How do you feel about people in positions of authority?
[Willy] I come in with respect. So, like if a person is above me, I just because of what my experiences were the military. I see them as more respectful. The same thing with the way that I was brought up with elders. I was always brought up no matter what. Even if, even if they're wrong, they're in a sense right because they're older. And was always taught, like, you don't back talk others.
[LRM] Yeah.
[Willy] And so, with when it comes to, like, disrespect or something in the form of a person who appears older than me. Then a lot of times I tend to take a step back. And she doesn't like it because she was taught differently that no matter what…
[Veronica] Yeah. I’ll break a bottle…I’m ready.[laughs]
[Willy] But for me because of where I was and even now, I mean, I have a moment that I can very quickly share. When I got out of the Marine Corps, I had a, I had a time where I wanted to try to get away from the military because I was like, “this is something that I'm already used to. So I want to try to challenge myself into doing something totally different.”
And we had a, we had a teammate of ours, the fellow manager. That was screwing the pooch on everything throughout our operations. And it was this person who was at fault. Everybody was trying to provide him feedback, not criticism, but feedback to try to help him and help our operations.
Well, people that were giving him feedback were like two or three levels above, as far as management levels, above him. And he was rolling his eyes and just like acting like a child. And I was like, if he does it to me, I'm the click off save and I'm gonna blast him right here. And, and he did as I expected.
And, and then he coward and he just looked down and didn't say anything. And what I told him, look at me when I'm talking to you. He, he wouldn't. But, but it was just because a person we’re actually going to be with later on today or tonight. She was, she was an officer in the Marine Corps.
And she was also many levels above me as far as management wise. And he disrespected her and I took it personally, and let my emotions get the best of me. And then once it came to me, he also kinda disrespected me and so I just blasted him right there on the spot and let him have it. I didn’t hit him, but I was…
[LRM] No, yeah. But this, this really speaks to…would you say, I hear that you have like total respect and totally abide by chain of command. But is there a certain amount of skepticism or distrust like, “well this person’s in a place of authority, let me see if they’re actually going to stick up for us and do a good job and do right by us.”
[Willy] Yeah, there is. I think, as I’ve gotten older I’ve challenged leadership a lot more, but I do it in a tactful and professional way, always. But also I have the ability to change depending on the situation, as well as who I’m talking to and the atmosphere, so I tailor my conversations that way. So if it’s a woman, I tailor my conversations towards a woman. If it’s a man…authoritative, alpha, then I have the ability to adapt to that as well. Because I’ve done negotiating, I’ve done all that type of…so I know how to de-escalate situations.
[LRM] So—that’s fascinating. So, In the previous episode, I didn't go into this because the enneagram is such a complex system. And we were just trying to do like a 101 overview of the nine types and motivations.
But each type actually has access to other types. And the sixes have access to three, which I just described before, like being highly adaptable. Being able to read a room, read a person, and shift how they engage with that person.
So you're just confirming my suspicion here about type six. And type six, they can be quite suspicious themselves. Sixes often report a good amount of just general anxiety in the world.
That there's this kind of attitude, like “the world is not really a safe place. I build my own safety. And when I venture out of my zone of safety, I have to be on alert.”
Is that true of you?
[Mr. Cisneros] Yes and no. Yes, because if I'm with my family, then yes, hypervigilant. Looking at everything, but if it's enough familiar place, that I feel secure in. Then no. But if, yeah, if it's stuff like that, then yeah, more on high alert. and skeptical to where we're at and saying like no. But I was a daredevil child.
[LRM] And so like when that brings up…
[Willy] And even now I still will be one to be like high adrenaline type stuff, high risk type stuff. Like when it comes to like my wife and I's belief in like…I would say I have no problem with my kids going outside and riding their bikes and the neighborhood and all that stuff. But my wife would be like, “Hell no. We don't know who's going around snatching children” I'm like, wait, we’re not living in a third world country. And we live in a good neighborhood, but her and my beliefs are that way because of the way that I was brought up. Like we didn't come home until the street lights came on and we're outside all day. And we only came in to eat and we went back outside and played. And so that's where I’ve like believed as far as our kids and told my wife.
[Veronica] [interjects]
[LRM] What was that?
[Veronica] Being a therapist has really ruined that for me. I'm like, nope, I’ve known about five people who got snatched up right across the street from your house.
[LRM] Well, Willy, you again, like this is just too textbook. So six is the only type in the enneagram where there are kind of two presentations of it.
One is the phobic six, which is like just the very fearful all the time. And then there's the counter-phobic six and the way that they are managing anxiety is actually by doing these adrenaline junky things like skydiving, like going into highly dangerous situations. It's a way to like learn to manage anxiety by like really testing yourself.
So it sounds like you have a good amount of that counter-phobic instinct, which like, yeah, you do these high-risk things. And it feels very authentic to you.
[Willy] Yeah, I actually find calmness and high stressful situations.
[LRM] Ah…Okay.
[Veronica] Yeah, that's true. Yeah, like I'm ready because he's so calm. We've had this conversation, Laurel. Yeah, because he's so calm. I'm like, ”break something…break someone. Show me that….”
[Willy] Show me that there’s something that’s going to press…[inaudible]
[Veronica] Yeah, for me, it's like, let's fuck some shit up.
You know, it's like a quick story. We were fucking, we almost died. I could give two shits how you think about it, but we almost died. And we, it was like crazy winds.
The boat kept on turning off because how bad the waves were hitting the boat. They were hitting them so hard. They were hitting the boats so hard. The boat turned off.
[Willy] And 35-mile an hour winds.
Yeah, it was nuts.
[Willy] Nautical winds.
[Veronica] Nobody talked. We all had our life vests, whatever. We like almost died. And yeah. And so we're in it. And Willy he's just like, I'm looking at him and I'm like, okay. And then meanwhile, I'm like, 911. And I'm looking…
[LRM] 911 doesn't go to the coast guard.
[Veronica] Well, there is no coast guard on the river.
[LRM] Wow.
[Veronica] Yeah, nobody was on the river. Nobody was on the river. Nobody was on the water, Laurel. And so I'm like, 911. And service is bad. I can't even 911. But his ass is just like, cool as a cucumber. And I'm like, “all right. It's time to go ahead and practice your emotion regulation skills, Veronica. And I was like, “babe!”
[Willy] That's why we balance each other out so well.
[LRM] Well, okay, but this is the purpose of this episode. The purpose of this episode is to talk about how does understanding the enneagram in a marriage in a partnership help you have less conflict and like greater appreciation and love for your partner, right? It builds that Gottman love map of like deeply understanding your partners inner world.
So I said in the previous episode, it's like each type is its own computer operating system. Now out in the world, we have like, we have Macs and we have, oh my gosh, I’m blanking, yeah, we have Macs and PCs and like, there's also like Linux and like, you know, the home build, but like we have Mac and PCs, right?
And, but there are nine operating systems for humans, right? And now, of course, each person is individual, but like core programming wise, right? If you can understand your partner's core programming, there's no limit to how close and in love you can be. And how much you can show love to your partner, right?
So this, this description of you two being on the boat and Veronica's like, “why isn’t he freaking out? I'm freaking out, right?” And you're just like, no, this is me.
Now, do you understand what was motivating her in that moment? What was going on for her?
[Willy] She was thinking, “We're going to die. I’m gonna lose my family.” And this is,
[Veronica] “Willy doesn’t give a shit.” That’s what I was thinking.
[Willy] “This is it. He don't care.”
[Veronica] “I'm going to have to save, I'm going to have to save everybody”
[Willy] Which you can't, yeah, which she can’t even save herself.
[Veronica] Yeah my friend’s mom, like, yeah, so we were dead.
[LRM] Veronica, we haven't, we haven't, we haven't narrowed down your type. It's definitely seven or eight, but we haven't figured out exactly. So I don't, you, you're very busy lady. I don't expect that you've been researching since we last met, but question.
Actually, I'd be, I'd be interested to hear from Willy. Would you say that your core motivation is to be in control and to like, have your autonomy? Or would you say your core motivation is to be content and have fun?
[Willy] Hm. I'll give the answer I give at work. It depends.
[LRM] Okay.
[Veronica] I would say B.
[LRM] That's a very secure answer.
[Veronica] Yeah. I would just say B) content. Content and fun.
[LRM] Yeah.
[Willy] Yeah, I'm content with where I'm at. I can have fun with where I'm at and with my little bubble.
[LRM] Yeah.
[Veronica] Like when we go places…
[LRM] Oh, no, so I'm asking for Veronica. What's Veronica's core motivation?
[Willy] Oh, so say it again…
[LRM] So is it to have can be in control and have autonomy?
[Willy] A. [all laugh] Control. Con-trol.
[Veronica] For five thousand.
[LRM] Okay. All right. So it sounds like. And of course Veronica, I always say I'd love to be wrong, but it sounds like you might be an eight. Right?
Now I've also said I love female eights because female eights have like said “F” that to all of the like feminine programming: like you have to be nice, you have to smile, you have to go along with other people.
[Veronica] No, that’s bullshit.
[LRM] No, like you are empowered and unapologetic. Right?
[Veronica] Yeah.
[LRM] Now I also know that you love to have a lot of fun. Right? But I think that's secondary to like being in your autonomy.
[Veronica] I like both though, like I like both, I like equally both. Calm the hell down…[laughs]
[LRM] You're having a very eight response to him saying you’re an eight.
All right. So if you were to hear about a couple who like one partner's core motivation is autonomy and control. And the other partner's core motivation is security and loyalty.
[Veronica] Okay, is it crazy? What the first question to you right now is are they a client of mine or is this just random?
[LRM] This is no, it's not a client of yours. Although you can't, I mean you can't really turn off clinician brain, I know that. But what what would be some of the issues you would think would come up for this couple that isn't you. Autonomy and control.
[Veronica] Uh-huh.
[LRM] Security and loyalty. What kind of conflicts come up there?
[Veronica] Oh, yeah. I know. Okay. I see it too. So a couple things. I think one of the biggest things that would come up is contempt. A thousand percent.
[LRM] Oh, okay.
[Veronica] And the reasons why is because. I mean, I don't do this, but.
[Willy] Eh.
[Veronica] [laughs] I think I think one of the things that might happen in that type of relationship and I'm thinking about a couple clients. I know I wasn't supposed to but whatever. Um, I see it as like I need to go ahead and make sure I provide some level of safety and some level of organization. By proving to you why there has to be some sense of order.
Um, and so I see maybe the person that's more in control, not me, but the person that's more in control as attempting to find some way to either manipulate, convince the other that order is necessary in order for there to be some level of flow.
[LRM] Yeah, or just, or just, you know, that they are correct or that they should be in charge.
[Veronica] Yeah.
[LRM] Right. These are like kind of a power struggle. A Power struggle would come up.
[Veronica] Yes.
[LRM] Yeah. What do you think would be challenging for the six, the more security and loyalty oriented one about someone that needs a lot of autonomy.
[Veronica] Um, I think for the six, are we talking about Willy or just in general, just in general, right?
[LRM] In general, we're not doing a whole couple therapy session, but, but thinking about it objectively helps it like remove it from you to be like, all right. ”If we have these two operating systems, what's going to, what translation software has to happen for these two people to love each other deeply?”
[Veronica] I think for the other one, the biggest hurdle would be, um, I think for the other one, the biggest hurdle might be that lack of independence, because now it's laser focused on them being dependent on— or feeling as if they're being dependent or forced on being on somebody’s role.
And then I think another thing that might come in between the two of them is, um, that feeling less than, you know, that's that not necessarily feeling as if they are less than, but feeling as if they're being convinced and invalidated and, and.
[Willy] Superior…
[Veronica] Right, like I feel like that would definitely come up, like I'm constantly being invalidated by this individual and then my look my, my, my ability to be independent is also being constantly questioned.
Um, so yeah, I could see that going wrong. Well, not us, because we're perfect, but like for other ones, it's totally shit, right. It's not happening.
[Ad Break]
[LRM] Yeah, I mean, some of the eight’s desire for autonomy and like being totally empowered might compromise the six’s need for security.
[Veronica] Yeah.
[LRM] Right. It's like the eight wants to be big and in the world and wants to take risks. And the six is like that feels bad to me.
[Veronica] Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.
[LRM] And then for the six, it’s like I really need you to be here. I need like a certain amount of like dependability and and the eight experiences that is constraining.
[Veronica] Yeah. Yeah. That second part…
[Willy] I was just going to say that right now, just kind of what you said, we just went over right now like our financial stuff and going over with our financial planner, whoever it was. And just one of the things that we're arguing about, and I was like, well, that decision is something we can do in the beginning of 2026.
And my wife is like, “no let's move that to 2025".” And I go, “no, let's move it to 2026 because I'd rather be more conservative and ensure that we're financially secure and able to do those things.”
[Veronica] And right away, I'm like, that's like, no, I need that right now.
[LRM] Like she doesn't want to be constrained and you are thinking long term security.
[Willy] Yes.
[LRM] Uh huh, uh huh…and Veronica, I would guess that you, in theory, love that about him that he's very much about security and like ensuring you have a future. But you hate when it impinges on the fun.
[Veronica] Yes, because the first thing that I thought of….
[Willy] Or I tell her is you can do something.
[Veronica] Yeah. I’m like bullshit! Watch me!
[LRM] Listen, I have had that experience with Veronica too. We were in Nashville and she was like, oh, can I buy this on the company card? And I was like, no, you cannot.
[Veronica] I didn't like that. I didn't buy it on the company card, but I was like,
[LRM] You didn't. You did the right thing. You did the right thing. Yeah, but you did not like me telling you no.
[Veronica] No, I was like, Laurel, I thought we were fucking homies. What’s going on here?
[Willy] “I'm gonna buy it anyway.” So she does. “Watch me. I wasn't actually…I wanted to sound like I was asking for your approval, but I was just gonna do it anyway.”
[Veronica] I'm gonna do the shit anyway.
[LRM] Okay. So do you see how just like understanding the operating system deconstructs common problems? Right?
[Veronica] Yeah. With what you're saying, it kind of brings me to we had…we did we had an argument a while back last year. And one thing that really helped us was knowing this about us, you know, where Willy didn't personalize it and I didn't personalize it. It was about, like it was a networking event. And you didn't know it was a networking event. You thought it was like a you and me event.
[Willy] Oh, yeah.
[Veronica] Yeah. And I was like, mm, it’s a networking event. And so Willie, what you know, one thing that was really good about like Willie was he was like, “just let me know it's a networking event, If it's a networking event…”
[LRM] He likes to know he can make contingency plans.
[Willy] It's like today, I want to really know like the contingency plan.
[All laugh]
Oh, except planning.
[Veronica] Me and Laurel made this decision for you.
[Willy] Now, I just I want to know the plan ahead of time. So I know what my role is. And then so it's not something that's just I'm caught off guard and I I have a different vision of how this is going to go. And it doesn't go that way. And I'm like, I feel let down. That's what it ended up happening. She had a whole agenda on how she seen her night going. I had a whole agenda on how I see my night going. We failed to see how each others night was going to go together or even at times apart. And so there was just miscommunication and in the end, I had just said suggested.
“Just let me know in advance and also either—either way. If I'm just here to be your your fly boy and you know, and you do you do your thing, then, then that's what I'll be. But if it's if it's, you know, we're going to do this together and just have a good time and enjoy a night out, then cool.”
[LRM] Well, eight’s are really good at winging it. Right?
[Veronica] I'm like, fuck, we’ll figure out the plan on our way.
[LRM] Well, that's there's a lot of seven in that too, but yeah. Yeah, I think they actually eight don't always love plans. They feel boxed in by them. And they're like, “well, what if I want to do this? I don't want to feel like I've already committed to this and this and this.” Right?
[Willy] So with this enneagram thing, can somebody be like the combination of things? Kind of like the disc-accessment where you have like in a class or?
[LRM] Yeah, no. So you you have one primary type that is your type, your whole life. It doesn't change. And then everyone has a wing that is on one side. So Willy, you could have a five wing or you could have a seven wing. I don't know you could you can you can discover that on your own.
And then we kind of move to different types in stress and in growth. We all have access to a little bit of each type. Like there's going to be parts of every type that we're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I feel that way sometimes.
But I like to think of it is like we have one main house. And then we have like a vacation house, which is our wing that we like have access to and kind of can get us up out of some of the bad stuff about our type, or the challenging stuff.
But no, you stay your type, your whole life. And I also like to say like there's no bad types. There's also no bad combinations of types. You know, six and eight, they're going to have certain challenges, but you two have clearly made it work. What is it? 23 years now?
[Both] 24!
[LRM] Okay. Well, see, like you can make any combination work if you're both willing to do the work and to really understand what motivates your partner and why they're behaving that way, not just being frustrated that they're behaving that way. Yeah. So I love the enneagram as a tool for couples.
[Veronica] No, I like it. This is this is this is it kind of sounds like this sort of speeds up that process for building love maps, right?
[LRM] Yes, it does.
[Veronica] Yeah. Definitely. Because with building love maps, there's a lot of questions and obviously there's a lot of questions involved. But there's a, you know, in like couples therapy, it takes a good amount of time, building up the couples so that they're not personalizing it and they recognize like, no, no, no. This is just sort of like their genetic makeup. And if you can look at it, yeah, that perspective, then you're more of this like, ah, it makes sense why my husband and my wife operates that way. And it's not an attack towards me.
[LRM] Yeah. It's also very trauma informed, right? Will, you said like your parents divorce really shaped how you are in the world. And we can heal from our trauma, but it also programs us. You know, we may not have trauma triggers. We may not be reactive to it, but it still has shaped us.
And yeah, Veronica, what you're speaking to is just like having a deep understanding of your partners in a world. I shared in the last episode I met my fiancee—I was like, that is a five. We are going to approach very gently. We're going to focus on thoughts and ideas and language and like forming a strong intellectual connection going very slow and giving lots of space, lots of alone time.
And my fiancee instantly felt seen heard and understood. Without having to tell me this is who I am and how I operate. Now, if I hadn't known the enneagram, I wouldn't have known to behave that way.
So we talked in the last episode about like you can use—it's not just for marriage. It's also with your kids. It's also with your employees and co-workers and bosses.
And it's anytime you have a general sense of someone's core fears and motivation, you can be more loving and communicate better with them and have better relationships and be more effective in the world.
[Veronica] Definitely. What…so for somebody that I mean, obviously we like when I took the test, I told you mine was like when I took the test, it gave me the.
[LRM} It told you you were a two or a three.
[Veronica] It told me I leaned two. And I'm like that makes sense. Right. So and I think I asked this question the last time. What would you get, what would you advise? So somebody who's just kind of like listening to this podcast and I'm like, “oh shit, I want to go ahead and do that trick on my husband or on me or whatever.” Like what would be the first step?
[LRM] Yeah.
[Veronica] Because I could already hear women. “Oh fuck, I'm totally going to try to voodoo my husband in figuring out what number he is right?
[LRM] Yeah, well, you can't determine someone else's type for them. Right. Again, I love to be wrong. So Willie, Veronica, if you decide to read up yourselves and you're like, oh, I'm not a six. I'm a nine. Okay, great.
[Veronica] Laurel! Got me all confused! [laughs]
[LRM] But if you want to learn more and I would start with yourself, not your partner, right? You have more access to your own inner world. So on my website, laureltherapy.net, we have a whole section on the enneagram. And I also recommend enneagraminstitute.org.
And then I recently become familiar with an author of Susanne Stabiel, and I really like her approach to the enneagram. It's very, it's very holistic and it's very like non-pathologizing some of the older ennegram work that’s more like, “here is what's wrong with this type.” No, like we're all, we're all doing the best we can.
[Veronica] Yeah.
And other than that, there are some really cool, like YouTube content creators. But the thing as you're reading and familiarizing yourself with enneagram is just to remember that it should feel really dynamic. It shouldn't feel static. It shouldn't feel like, well, “this enneagram type is this type of Halloween candy”—because Halloween candy is static. This is like a very moving and flexible way of being, even though you stay your same type, like you can be healthier in that type. Yeah.
[Willy] So with this is with the assessment, if you're going to do it by yourself and not just for myself, but for others that are listening. What would you say, because I could tell you right now that I can adapt a test to what people deceive me as or the outcome I wish to make this test go that way.
I think that in the way that we're doing it right now, it's more authentic. You can see, basically, my responses and not through me trying to make myself seem like, you know, give the perception. It's going to be more of a true way of getting back what it is…versus—
[LRM] I don't recommend tests at all. Actually, I don't recommend doing the assessments because the assessments really only measure behavior. And like you said, it's really easy to manipulate them. If you want the world to see you as a two, then you're going to present yourself in the way that looks like a two, even if your core motivation is more like a seven. Right, or for—right. We're looking at what truly motivates you. What's deep in there that is the motivation for all your behaviors test can only measure behavior.
So, you know, I think just reading and familiarizing yourself with the system. That's really the best way. I don't think the assessments are good. And there are many out there. Some of them are paid tools. Some of them are just like, you know, a Buzzfeed quiz. And I haven't found any that I like. They often tell women that there are two and men that they're an eight because those are kind of very like gendered types.
Eight being a very masculine type, which is why I love when women have like, you know, defied the social conditioning and I love when men are two and they are nurturing and caring and giving.
So, but yeah, it just—it's I think pretty much everyone gets mistyped when they take an assessment.
[Veronica] Yeah.
[LRM] So reading through the types and when you read one that's like, “oh, that's uncomfortable. Are they watching me? Are they in my head?” That's a clue that it could be your type.
[Veronica] Yeah, it sounds like the best way to really really get an idea of where you're at is going to Laurel’s website. We've got to visit Laurel’s website. She did an amazing job with both of us. And now you guys have a better understanding, a clearer understanding of the benefits from this enneagram and Laurel, thank you so much. Thank you so much for being on…
[Willy] No this is insightful, it just let me know more about myself, where I am.
[LRM]And that's that's really the beauty. I mean, it we need to use the enneagram first on ourselves. First we need to do our own work and to be the healthiest version of our own type that we can be. And then we can start using it in our relationships.
[Veronica] Yeah, we know why I need to always be in control.
And you just go with the flow.
[Willy] Yeah, this is the situation [laughs]
[LRM] Well, it was so fun. Thanks for having me.
[Veronica] Absolutely. Thank you so much for jumping on and doing this. This was amazing. Did you?
This is right?
[Willy] Yeah.
[LRM] Well, I'll see you again soon for Veronica and Willie. I'm sure I'm sure you'll be around. I'll see you.
[Willy]I mean, maybe.
[LRM] All right. Have a good one.
[Veronica] All of this information will be in the show notes. Laurel, again, can you tell us where we can find you on social media and then can you give us that website one more time?
[LRM] Yeah, my website is laureltherapy.net and we do offer enneagram therapy. So if you know your type and you're wanting to be the best kind of four that you can be or the best kind of six, you can be. We can help you out with that. California, Florida, and Pennsylvania. And then our social—Instagram is laurel therapy collective.
[Veronica] Boom. Thank you again, Laurel.
[LRM] Thanks so much.
[Willy] All right. Thank you.
[Music]
The Enneagram is often treated like a personality quiz. But at its core, it is a map of human motivation, emotional patterns, and early adaptations. Many people are surprised to learn how deeply the Enneagram aligns with trauma-informed care.